I wonder how many of you read "A Thousand Splendid Suns", those who have will realize the potential danger of letting bullies and vigilantes who shout out "OUR CULTURE IS OFFENDED" from the roof tops, and to those who have not read the book, let me explain.
The book is set in pre-Taliban Afghanistan where, as the book reads, it is evident the country was doing well for itself. But the wars set in, and one thing leads to another, and the taliban creeps in. The hard lined, regressive, and oppressive regime is not news to anyone. We all know, or at least have an idea of the awful state of affairs there. I am afraid that India is poised to get there too.
From the view point of a person fresh out of his teens, has not seen much of the world, let alone much of India, except through news channels, and what I know of the world -hearsay; India in its present state still scares me. These fresh attacks on "PUB CULTURE" are especially unsettling.
Do not mistake me for a person who is PRO pub culture. I am not PRO or ANTI anything in this context. I just do not agree that going to pubs is going against Indian culture. What i would like us to take note of is how the topic of discussion has shifted so conveniently. Instead of telling this moral police to mind their own business, we are discussing PUBS?? We can and probably should discuss pubs but later, once the message is clear INDIA is not a land to spew ones hatred, and ignorance on. AND NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW. We let these "Protectors of culture" go today, tomorrow they will start banning books, tv shows, clothes, free speech, and slowly but surely we are back in time, when women could not vote, and men would be following bonded labor.
Which culture is offended when people go to pubs? Why is it other people's business to deal with it. Going to pubs is a personal choice. You can only offend people (that one can do culturally, physically, morally and in other ways). You simply cannot offend a culture. Let these moral police point out which culture is offended by going to pubs. Is it them who are offended? Most likely. Discussing ANYTHING else is moot right now, and will be off topic. Even saying that our gods and goddesses, kings and queens were all PRO what any MORAL police, or layman would be ANTI, is irrelevant. We are losing sight of the important issue.
A similar case is here back home in BOMBAY. We have another Hitler in the making. No one has the guts to do what is necessary. People are discussing what his ideals are, whether they are right or wrong can be discussed later, you just cannot be a vigilante.
Unfortunately, India is going to be a country that thrives on falsities, pseudo culture, pseudo ideology, pseudo secular, pseudo honest and pseudo hope. I feel jealous of America, they have an honest, straightforward and seemingly strong and intelligent man to lead them.
Just a rant about today's Science in India
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So today I read an article about the state of Science in India written by
Prof. G. R. Desiraju, a professor of chemistry from IISc. Here is the
article.
...
12 years ago
17 comments:
Well... when there is so much to be proud of in our culture like poverty, sati, dowry, child marriage, rape, child labor, religious intolerance, caste system, chauvinism, regression, greed, manipulation, selfishness etc, then naturally we must fight against going to pubs, women's education, internal security, nationalism, freedom to live like a human being, good infrastructure, better technology, better education etc. After all... we must protect our culture...No?
This isn't about 'pub culture bad for indian culture', this is more about gaining political brownie points. Small timers becoming big-wigs, in order to more weight in an already corrupt system.
It's high time we separate the Judiciary & the Policing System from political influence. Had this same situation occurred in a 'western' democracy, those hooligans (the Talibs aka Muthalik and his men) would have been indicted for public disruption and riotous behaviour.
I blame the judiciary for this mess. It's high time they learn how to protest in non violent manner.
they say 'goinna pubs is not in our culture but does hittin women and strippin 'em,a part of our culture.Democracy gives me the rite to go wherever i wanna n wear watever i wanna,n noone can restrain me frm doin it.if i am a girls parent n i dont hav any problem wid my daughter goin to any pub or even sleepin wid any1 den y do these ppl hav an issue.sala,ladki meri,paisa mera,desh mera, par 'khujli' inko...sick
I am sure there is a checklist of things and practices that are 'against' our culture lying somewhere under the desk of the polictical hooligans, and its sorted in order of 'how many people will believe this non-sense'. These are real smart people, mind you; we just need to be smarter. Taliban wouldnt be taliban if people saw sense.
I am sure there is a checklist of things and practices that are 'against' our culture lying somewhere under the desk of the polictical hooligans, and its sorted in order of 'how many people will believe this non-sense'. These are real smart people, mind you; we just need to be smarter. Taliban wouldnt be taliban if people saw sense.
I see the parallel u make with 'A Thousand Splendid Suns' clearly... afterall there also it started with extremely narrow minded people coming into power due to war, them forming the Taliban and the consequent resulting fall of society.
Thats whats happening in our country....only thing is that these people are coming into power by OUR INACTION... Just u wait till 14th Feb now... there'll be more of this then.
Still for all this blogging and ranting against the moral police in various media, its narrow minded people like Raj Thackeray and parties like Shiv Sena which will come into power, cause the people who vote for them neither watch TV nor Blog, they just attend ralies.
Ofcourse the moral police should mind its own business, infact there shouldnt be anything like a moral police in the first place, still Archies remain closed on Valentines, still there are no dance bars and still people will fear going to Pubs, Thats INDIA, live with it or leave, dont try to change it, let it ruin itself, let it go back to stone age, cause from the ruins only a new civilization rises. Thats where (I Hope) we are headed.
the pub culture is definitely not indian...its something that we have picked up from the western culture...
but just like everytime whenever something new is borrowed or implemented there are ppl who will be pro-it or anti-it...i am sure the people will soon find sense in these new cultures...and who knows...all those ppl who are yelling anti might just turn pro then once they understand or get used to the culture...
until then those who are pro pub culture or any other should stick to it with reasons...if they are good reasons i am sure all sensible people will understand...and those not sensible enough will learn from the sensible ones...
The netas just want to be in news or impose their ideas on others...i am sure they dont abide to "culture" themselves..nowadays the more they do destruction the more popular they are!!
I might sound a bit contrarian to the overwhelming views expressed in this blog. But then variety is the spice of life!!
Firstly, it’s good that you clearly articulated the problem at hand. Its not being PRO anything or ANTI something. Indian culture is as much about upholding tradition, as it is to be as Indian as the constitution asks you to be. Also let me add, the mangalore acts were deplorable and so were the ones in mumbai. The miscreants should be brought to book ASAP. But i differ on certain other points:
“Going to pubs is a personal choice. “
Yes indeed. But to that point and to a comment by Kaustubh, it is our right and personal choice to exercise our freedom and fundamental rights, but it is also our duty to make sure we don’t infringe on others rights. This applies to the vigilantes as well as those who think its perfectly alright to run naked down the street coz its their body.(body apni, khujli usko!)
“I feel jealous of America; they have an honest, straightforward and seemingly strong and intelligent man to lead them.”
I ask you, is the person leading us any worse? I think he’s at par if not better. So no need for the envy!!
As far as the other commentators’ viewpoints go, I think there is a lot of post 26/11 frustration and negativity. It’s easy, even fashionable to blame every living soul around you for something u don’t like after which you start feeling hapless and then the negativity flows in. Like you wrote, one thing leads to the other!! This constant comparison with the promise land in the ‘west’ irks me the most.
It’s not all hunky dory over there. You can’t compare apples and oranges. Take education, health care, juvenile crime rate among other things where India is far better off than America & the rest of the west. The recent banking system collapse reiterates that point. But yes there are issues in our country which need to be sorted out. It will take time to rebuild an enslaved nation, 60years is not enough! But the answer is not to give up. Ironically, the statement with regards to India - “live with it or leave it” sounds more in tune with the sena motto, in both cases we don’t want more people choosing the latter!
“I am afraid that India is poised to get there too”.
Well, I’m not! These are just a bunch of hooligans, an insignificant proportion of a nation of over a billion. I think Vivek (NEx”) was spot on with his comment. The judiciary will take its course, which in India is a long one. In the mean time, let us believe in what we adopt as our culture, and think around the problem rather than be rebellious or timid. Celebrate love on the 13th or 15th of feb or maybe the 1st of april, why make a fuss about the 14th. Why give the miscreants an opportunity??
-JJB
Since you are holding a point of view that is contrary, (either to spice up life, or otherwise) lets take what you said point wise.
“”Going to pubs is a personal choice. “
Yes indeed. But to that point and to a comment by Kaustubh, it is our right and personal choice to exercise our freedom and fundamental rights, but it is also our duty to make sure we don’t infringe on others rights.”
True, but unfortunately, in going to pubs, we do no such thing. Unfortunately, these poor souls who are offended by seeing their culture brushed away cannot claim it is their right being punched down when someone visits a pub.
“I feel jealous of America; they have an honest, straightforward and seemingly strong and intelligent man to lead them.”
I ask you, is the person leading us any worse? I think he’s at par if not better. So no need for the envy!!
Like you pointed out, personal choice. That said, let me also add that I don’t mean in terms of education, or wisedom. I mean in terms of persona, the attitude. Our man is another generation. More than that he is not a politician, he is an economist. Maybe PC would make a good PM! That man, albeit, the same credentials, is younger, quicker, and his body language instils some kind of confidence in me.
It’s not all hunky dory over there. You can’t compare apples and oranges. Take education, health care, juvenile crime rate among other things where India is far better off than America & the rest of the west. The recent banking system collapse reiterates that point. But yes there are issues in our country which need to be sorted out. It will take time to rebuild an enslaved nation, 60years is not enough! But the answer is not to give up. Ironically, the statement with regards to India - “live with it or leave it” sounds more in tune with the sena motto, in both cases we don’t want more people choosing the latter!
Agreed its not all perfection there either. I don’t quite understand your point. If according to you , you cant compare apples and oranges, your paragraph following this is moot. Therefore I shall take it that you agree, we can compare the two. By the two I mean, India and a western one, and for ease of discussion lets take America.
Education I do not agree is better here than there, just a statistical evaluation of education rate and not education, is not enough to say it is better here than there. There has been no scientific contribution that is worthy of note, from India since Raman. What are we doing with our famed education?
Health care is abysmal here. At least the kind of ‘care’ a patient gets is questionable. The municipal Hospitals aren’t any a standard to either go by, or set. The fact that there is a place for a poor indian to get free medical attention is the only good. But that is killed by the fact that he never knows if his kidney will be taken out and sold to cover the incompetent doctor’s fees.
Juvenile crime rate is the only thing I will concede could be better, if by that you mean children coming out of at least lower middle class families don’t do crime. Unfortunately, we have established a class(social and economic) FAR BELOW that. And that level is rife with crime. It just doesn’t matter whether it is juvenile or not.
America on the other hand has clearly far more than three advantages. Better Infrastructure, Better implementation and execution of the law, better standard of living, Most of the IVY league colleges are there, Advanced research in almost any field, swifter legal system. And this is just saying it broadly.
When people say it will take time, I need to ask, 60 years was not enough? America took 200 years to get to where it is, because there was no one better for them to watch and learn. Surely we have countries to watch and learn from. Or are we going to dig our heels in and say…no no no we must start with the wheel….lets all go back to the stone age and start afresh.
Well, I’m not! These are just a bunch of hooligans, an insignificant proportion of a nation of over a billion. I think Vivek (NEx”) was spot on with his comment. The judiciary will take its course, which in India is a long one. In the mean time, let us believe in what we adopt as our culture, and think around the problem rather than be rebellious or timid. Celebrate love on the 13th or 15th of feb or maybe the 1st of april, why make a fuss about the 14th. Why give the miscreants an opportunity??
Thinking around a problem, is fine if that problem is legitimate. Is it only these hooligans to whom India belongs? They are significant, because they have a voice, and their significance can be proved further by the fact that NO ONE SEEMS TO have the guts to put them in prison. Therefore, like they say, you give a rat a cookie, he’s gonna want some milk. So now, they will enforce their law on 14th. Not saying or doing what is necessary at the right time will lead to disaster.
To your timid and rebellious line I’d like to quote what someone said about the rise of Hitler:
The only thing for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
-Edmund burke
Pub culture and valentines day are not the only two culture that we have borrowed from the west.What is the guarantee that if we somehow scrap these two, they wont demand for more. What if tomorrow they stand up and say that girls wearing western outfits will be beaten up???
Moreover what i feel is that these group of people are not opposing cultures that they feel are harmful, but only opposing them because these are not ours but western.
If the Sena's motto of "live with it or leave it" was actually followed these many decades, our country would not have been what it is now. We would still be facing child marriage, sati etc(this was supposed to be our CULTURE!)
Above all I wonder who has given these groups the right to take law in their hands. If they have voluntarily taken the responsibility of protecting our culture, they can do so but peacefully. Otherwise i think these groups should be banned first before any particular culture. Presently they are the one most harmful...
Apropos the pub culture discussion, here is my own tuppenny-worth ...it is fairly long and therefore not to be read if in a hurry or in urgent need of rushing to the restroom or about to sit at dinner or if sleepy after a tiring day or ...... if you have only a few minutes.
Best to take it in small doses, installments too little singly to alarm our intellect and which can be assimilated without straining our neurons.
Here goes....
What the comments written here show is that there are as many differing points of view on anything as there are people who make them. As Oscar Wilde said, "everything depends on the point of view".
A few of them however need debate.
For instance when NEx said that "pub culture is definitely not Indian" it is not clear what exactly is meant. Is there a culture attached to meeting at a bar, drinking unspecified amounts of alcoholic drinks, smoking and talking to friends and maybe dancing? And why is this behavior labeled "western”? Don't we have things fairly similar in many villages, where people meet under a tree or a common place and drink and talk and dance? If the venue shifts to a tavern or pub how does it change the culture? If what is meant is that in the pub culture women too participate and thereby invite charges of being licentious, it is absurd. Not just in pubs but in all aspects of present-day existence women are more visible, not just in pubs. The concept of gender equality is not just on paper, it is a real phenomenon. As for the question of women smoking in pubs, women in villages up north have been smoking for centuries with no sense of it being taboo.
The suggestion that the judiciary and the police should be free of political interference is absolutely right. Unfortunately our political class will just not let go. If you look closely you will see that the majority of our problems in our nascent democracy stem from interfering politicians. Remove that and you remove most of our problems. The average citizen couldn't be bothered less what any of us do with our time; this moral policing is not his idea, it is once again that of a self styled crusader with one eye on notoriety of a kind, often political.
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Joe’s comment equating the freedom of choice in going to a pub with that of running down a street without clothes may deliberately be intended to be absurd but it hides a major misunderstanding of freedom of choice. A pub is an enclosed place where all who go know in advance what a pub is about and are exercising a choice in going there. Nobody's rights are being infringed there. Running down a street in whatever dress or undress is quite another thing. There is the vast public present and it is clear that the choice is now impacted by the sensitivities of the people around. If it were a colony or a beach where everyone else is in the same state of undress it would not look incongruous. In a street the person is violating a law and while he can exercise his right to run the way he wants, he must also be prepared to face the consequences of such action since it takes place in a public place. In an enclosed area that has set out its rules and services in advance all that the one who goes there is doing is behaving exactly as the pub allows everyone else to do.
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Re criticism of this country: it can at times be mindless but when the rottenness in our system is criticized, to call it negative is once again to miss the point. In pretending that problems do not exist or that they are not to be pointed out is artificial patriotism. Highlighting a problem cannot always be accompanied by a solution to it though it is desirable that it be. However, our elected representatives are elected for precisely that reason, to solve problems that affect the citizenry they have sworn to serve. The harsh truth is that they don't and often get into public office only to enrich themselves in the limited period available. Citizens would certainly work toward solving problems ailing this country but they must have people in office who are sensitive to such solutions and willing to facilitate them. They don't. Any of the readers here, give me one solution to our slums. Everyone agrees that they are an eyesore and worse, a cruel joke on a hapless populace forced to live subhuman rodent-like existences there. The Administration whose responsibility it is to ensure a life with dignity to all, perpetuates these slums with extended "cut-off" dates. No one talks of removing a slum, they talk of providing them electricity and water. If anyone has a viable solution to this problem it will be worth hearing. Till then the criticism is valid.
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Lastly the point about things not being "hunky-dory" in America and references to that country as an El Dorado irking the writer, there is once again a focus shift here. When anyone talks about America being a desired destination, it is because everyday living is so hassle-free there. Of course it has its problems like any other country but the everyday things that matter to an average citizen are so harmoniously organized and work like clockwork that no matter who the administrator is, they function smoothly. The systems are so robust that nothing will dislodge them. Education is a serious matter there just as observance of the law is; neither of these is in this country. Policies here change with every change in government and what one has done the other tries his best to undo at the earliest only to be reinstalled when the government changes yet again.
For those who want to get ahead and have the talent or drive to do so, America is the place that will recognize that and provide the platform. If anyone were to say that America treats us Indians with disrespect, the charge is partly true. One reason is that many of us carry with us to that country our unpunctuality, our laziness, our excuse-making, our disregard for the law and for rules, our disregard for safety, our tendency to cheat given a chance, our ability or keenness to adulterate almost anything, our belief that the only thing of any value is the ability to make money and that providing value for that money is a stupid principle. No wonder that they regard many of us who behave thus as undesirable citizens But real talent and ability is celebrated and applauded more in America than in any other country in the world.
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Right at the outset, let me state my position with regard to the mangalore pub incident. I am in no way advocating the vandalism nor am I questioning the correctness of going to a pub. The former is wrong and condemnable, while the latter is legally permissible.
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The “apples and oranges” comment was intended to state that a developed nation and a developing nation cannot be compared holistically. The paragraph that followed was to enumerate certain fields where the protégé was one up on the mentor.
Education: A statistical evaluation of education rate and the number of professionals churned out per year is a sign of a more even distribution of education. Quality education that is a luxury of some is arguably a milestone, but reasonable education preparing you for further studies, and available to the masses is a commendable achievement in its own.
The research workforce in the west is majorly fueled by Indian talent, brought up in the very institutions you disregard.
Health Care: When you say health care is abysmal here and that the ‘care’ is questionable, I presume you are mentioning the addons. In terms of medical care, I doubt if Indian hospitals are lagging from the ones in the west. But if luxury accommodation and a deep hole in the pocket is your idea of ‘care’, then maybe we lack in that. We can proudly say, that we can get decent health care without mandatory insurance cover!
“When people say it will take time, I need to ask, 60 years was not enough? America took 200 years to get to where it is, because there was no one better for them to watch and learn. Surely we have countries to watch and learn from. “
Merely having guidelines does not expedite the process. It streamlines it, but growth and progress aren’t achieved by knowledge alone. Factors such as money, resources, and social variables are equally at play.
My analogy on personal freedom, which I must say has attracted many an authors’ ire, needs clarification.
My comments were aimed specifically at an earlier remark that I quoted in my previous post. I am in complete agreement to the fact that one can exercise his freedom as long as it does not infringe upon anybody else’s. So a person willingly choosing to enter a pub and then adhering to the permissible practices inside is perfectly entitled to do so.
I was precisely outlining my understanding of the freedom of choice, wherein you abide by the laws of the land while practicing your rights. This I mentioned applies to the vigilantes who took the law into their hands inside the pub, as well as the youth who misinterprets this sacred right to be one of limitless scope (Refer comment 3 – Kaustubh). If my comment was read carefully in its entirety, I suppose the ambiguity may not have arisen.
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As far as the slums go, solutions such as providing alternate housing have been implemented over the years. But this is not going to rid us of slums, as the influx is increasing every year. The root cause of this problem is the disparity in the rural and urban population. For the rural Indian, the city is his promise land; much like the west or America is to the urban Indian. So by not providing electricity or water to our fellow citizens, just because their accommodation is an eyesore to the privileged class, we would increase the disparity even in the cities. It is ironical, even surprising that the very citizenry that witnesses this disparity first hand and disapproves of it, is willing to compromise their dignity and remain slum dog equivalents in the west.
By all means highlight the pitfalls and the problems and criticize the rottenness in our systems. Such activism is welcome. What irks me is not this, but the escapism syndrome that is being propagated along with this activism. The ones who choose to not partake in the sowing for lack of time and patience may go ahead, but let them not pull the plug on the ones who earnestly are trying to bring about a change.
rofl !!!
dude nikhil america is just being sold to the world
its because we dont know about all the problems the common man in america faces, that we feel they are luckier than us
politics is same all over
and yet i agree with the general opinion of outrage on the subject to some extent
why should the innocent party goers suffer ?
just because
what could it be ? 40 % of them might be consuming ilegal drugs and like 5% are killing ppl in road mishaps after drunk driving ???
small figures dont u think ?!
( heavy sarcasm intended )
i do not support the moral police or the politicians even to the slightest extent in the entire ordeal mind you
moral policing is a faux concept which is lost on a democratic populace where everyone has his own opinion and wants to enjoy his own freedom just because they have got a written right to do so
people in general should actually learn to review themselves and their actions as well as demands
i agree totally with JOE's words
"My comments were aimed specifically at an earlier remark that I quoted in my previous post. I am in complete agreement to the fact that one can exercise his freedom as long as it does not infringe upon anybody else’s. So a person willingly choosing to enter a pub and then adhering to the permissible practices inside is perfectly entitled to do so. "
KUDOS !!!
but sadly joe
such idealistic behaviour can never be monitored
as NN said before
diff people diff personalities
and one will always find the one who will break the rules and mess things up for the rest of us
Let me reiterate my point. The issue is not whether going to pubs is good or bad, right or wrong, harmful or harmless. Going to pubs is as irrelevant to the issue as is going to a temple.
I am right now pointing out the fallacies that we are forced to live in.
You said "i do not support the moral police or the politicians even to the slightest extent" and i think that sums it up.
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